AngryJacks Poker Forum

Of interest, has anyone else found themselves more 'in tune' with opponents and their hands after you fold? Why is this? Fold, then catch the BB exhale and raise. Or the 'hand over the mouth' and/or holding breath bet on the river. Or the stare and bet. Or the overcall. Or the player who looks at his cards and immediately his chips. So why don't we always catch this info. while IN the hand?

Perhaps we spend too much time planning our next move, instead of observing?

It's a tricky combination of concealing tells, while trying to observe them AND interpret them correctly. Is it a real reaction or a blatant practiced motion meant to confuse. Figure out what they want you to do, and then do the opposite, right!? Most players are decently good at concealing, yet over the course of a few hours and a moment of weakness they practically turn the cards face up. At this moment, you can only hope you are in the hand, heads up, and paying attention. Unfortunately we are often looking at our stack, or the board, counting the odds, planning the moves... and not reading the signs.

Perhaps we should try a combination of observation and planning? The Full Tilt commercial with Phil Ivey is a great example. His mind is racing through odds, numbers, information about the hand and how it played, etc., all while STARING at his opponent! He watches each motion, calculating pieces of the puzzle, and puts it all together announcing "I'm all in". Coolio.

Food for thought. Comments, insight, feedback?

_________________
POKER IS -EV

-Scott

dd you write this?

_________________
---- EY

I am not chopping. So you know.

yessir, quiet day at the office.

_________________
POKER IS -EV

-Scott

I find it hard to stayed focused with our group compared to playing live somewhere else where you don't really know anyone.

We are all shooting the shit, talking during hands and not be considerate to others while they are in hands. THis causes people to act differently as they normally would.



THe new TV show by Joe Hachem teaches the players how to keep control and stay focused. Maybe some of us can learn from it.

_________________
Josh

How long does it take you to gleen enough information from a certain person to feel comfortable acting properly in a hand with them? 60 seconds? 10 minutes?

I can usually spot a weakness within a few minutes. and then i can wait for me to be in a hand with that person before trying to exploit it. really anything beyond that maybe counterproductive you may start to doubt your initial feelings on the person.

btw, i have a book on all of you...with all of your tells/weaknesses.

this is to counteract the private forum you have setup that tells how to beat EY. I cant wait for one of you to slip up and leave your AJ signed in when i am around.

_________________
---- EY

I am not chopping. So you know.

I agree with Josh that I observe much less while listening to a humorous anecdote from Coach about how EY made a bet that he could never win, so on and so on...

_________________
Bob

there is no private forum.... its a public forum......

_________________
slow play at your risk
you cannot bluff a donkey
river runs both ways

.....Burt

"when the muddy waters are left alone, it will soon become clear."

_________________
-Aaron "Coach"

palabra. good quote

_________________
---- EY

I am not chopping. So you know.

It was at a poker game not long ago with a group who calls themselves Angry Jacks, when a young player named Joel climbed into the dome of an un-suspecting up and comer who still has much to learn about the game, and ripped away a giant pot based partially on observation of said player and the tells that he picked up on. (how is that for a run on sentence)

For those who guessed the up and comer was me (ok I was being self indulgent) you'd be correct. During break, I pulled the wise techie aside to ask what he had picked up on. He enlightened me on some tells that I was giving off and recommended the book "Read Em and Reap" which he was kind enough to bring to a later game.

Well, I put Harrington aside to dive into this one to try to plug some leaks. It is amazing how much more dialed in you become when your goal at the table is to observe. Just playing with this group I have naturally picked up on reading certain aspects of peoples games, betting patterns, etc... but have never focused on observing MYSELF first and formost. Well, I hit the tables yesterday to apply what I have learned. I spend a couple of hours at Lucky's mid day playing a little 1/2. The first thing I noticed is one of the tells that Joel picked up on (My feet were heel up in the "runners stance") is something that I do ALL THE TIME. I actually just happen to sit that way at the table. So that was task #1, to keep my feet planted the whole time. Ok, now to focus on the tards. It is simply amazing how transparent some people are. Obviously, some can conceal much better than others, but what a freakin edge that I didn't have even the last time I played.

Fotunately I was able to cash at Lucky's so my satty at the Derby was basically a free roll. Part 2 of observation was at Derby. One particular hand sticks out to me. I can't remember the entire details of the hand, but the aggressor of the hand was firing bullets on each street and the other playing involved was sitting right next to me. (he was mumbling about how he thinks he was beat and he "has to call"...it was an A high board with a wheel draw out there) All the while I notice the aggressor (who was pretty quiet and statuesque at the table) pick up on a side conversation going on at the table and and join in on it and throw his 2 cents in the mix. In addition he started massaging his chip stack. Player next to me calls large bet and wins the pot with AJ. Agressor mucks. "Wow, I thought I was beat" the man says.

"Wow, I am so much better than the players at this table" ... I thought

Thank you very much for the read Joel

_________________
Bob

Good insight Bob! I've had this book for years, and want to throw out a few words of caution. I've have had a few situations where the read is right, but the interpretation is wrong. In other words, player is holding their breath, massaging their neck, etc. obvious signs they're weak or bluffing. But just how weak... Sometimes it's top pair and they're afraid of their kicker. Sometimes two pair and they're afraid of the board. Sometimes it's complete air, but you're wondering if your KING HIGH is good enough to call off your stack with, even though you've picked up on a huge read. The best ones are the nostril flairs, happy feet, or other confirmation reads that the player is strong. Those are easier to help us lay down TPTK or an obviously beat hand, that without the observation we'd probably have to announce, "I might be behind but I have to call" due to pot odds or just not knowing where we stand. With the information from this book, we can smile as our cards hit the muck.

_________________
POKER IS -EV

-Scott

lol.. ummm... who says that stoopid shit?

lol. can i please read this book?

_________________
---- EY

I am not chopping. So you know.

Whomever offers it first, feel free. If you're at our place anytime soon you can get it from me. It is definitely an important weapon in your arsenal.

_________________
POKER IS -EV

-Scott